ORLANDO BLANDON. APRIL 27, 1998

(with Mario Ordoñez)

Q - I haven't been able to interview Enrique for a number of year for various reasons, so I have lost contact with what is happening in the communal movement. So along the way when I ask you questions I will be making reference to various pieces of literature like ENVIO, and so on because that is the only reference point I have. I have sincerely hope that we can get to something else besides the Daniel Ortega thing. Because there are specific things that I want to know about the Communal Movement. But we might as well start with the Ortega situation.

I was going to ask you straight out what effect all this is going to have on the party's ability to work with the Communal Movement, and other social movement, but especially yours, of course.

I don't think I will jump in right there, because as I recall there was historically at least since the emergence of the MRS and even before that, a division among the leadership of the Communal Movement in terms of their allegiance to the party and Ortega and so on. So I need to know when you talk to me about the impact of all this are you speaking just for yourself? Who are you speaking for? The Communal Movement? A group within it?

First I need to know your title?

I am the Coordinator of the Communal Movement for Managua. First of all, I would like to propose to you that the problem we are facing today is very different from that of the first interview in 1992. We have been working and strengthening our proposal around the autonomy that we have as the Communal Movement. Whatever event or problem that any political party might have, is something complete separate from the life and problems of the Communal Movement. We now have been strengthening our work around our own nature and our own statutes. We even just finished an assembly where we were working on the reform of our statutes. We are very clear that within the Communal Movement we can have some differences that have to do with the organizational work itself. But that does not mean that we are divided. But truly one of the reasons why the Communal Movement might be strong is because it has a national structure and because there is unity in its work and its leadership structure as well.

So we truly respond to the policies of the organization and not to personal criteria.

Q - So then I will ask the question that I was going to start with. How do you now see the relationship between the party and the Communal Movement, given the scandal and everything.

The relationship between us and the party has been or is one of coordination. We have very good relations with the party structure. We also don't avoid the fact that we are militants of the Sandinista Front. But at the moment to make decisions, we don't mix the party with the organization. But we do have very good relations.

Q - Do you have any specific hopes for the Congress, what you would like to see happen?

That now would be a more personal appreciation and one of a militant. Of course, for all of the popular sector it is important that the Sandinista comes out of that strengthened, that they are able to articulate their proposal, their program of struggle, that their leadership comes out solidified, because the reality is that it is the only alternative for the popular sectors, as a political party that identifies most with the poor. So in that sense, yes, we have hopes.

Q - I have a note here from the last time I interviewed Enrique, and I am sorry to keep bringing him up, but he is the only one I interviewed in those years. I have a quote from him where he said that the party still wanted to dominate the social movements. That was 1994. So have things changed?

Yes, things have changed completely. There is a respect for the autonomy and yes, there is a true relationship of coordination that has developed.

Q - This might be out of date also. This is an article that was written by a North American in 1995, in which he says…

What there is, is a stigmatization in the struggle. For example, at this time when the doctors are fighting for their salaries, which is a just demand, and a right, the doctors asked us, the social organizations, to support their struggle. We in solidarity support them. Because we have been working with them from the community level. So it is logical that we would support them. So the government, to try to discredit a just struggle, now is beginning to say that it is only the Sandinistas who are involved, and are supporting the doctors' struggle. But that is a way of discrediting them. It is a stigma.

Q - This writer in 1995 said that the Movement leaders have been criticized by the Frente for supporting a civic method of struggle, as opposed to a more aggressive one, and for betraying the revolution. The source here was Maxima Bermudez. Has that changed also?

From what I said to you that the Sandinista Front has been respecting the autonomy of the social movements, we think in practice that the change has continued, the change toward autonomy. That is to say that the Sandinista Front coordinates, consults with us, and we participate jointly in struggles. Because we truly work and bring together all who are fighting for justice. We would like it if some party of the right would call us and coordinate with us to wage a struggle for the interests of the social sectors, the popular sectors. We fight with whoever wants to fight. We unite with whoever wants to defend the interests of the popular sectors.

[Mario Ordoñez, Vice Coordinator of the Communal Movement for Managua: It is important to leave clear, because there is a lot of talk about this question, that there is no subordination. This is important. One of the most important advancements currently is the contradiction that the revolutionary movements have had in Latin America and in the world , about the State and the social movements, in Nicaragua there was a powerful advancement.

The State and the mass organizations and the party. So there does not exist a "subordination" but what we are clear about is that because of its historical roots, the Nicaraguan Communal Movement has a leadership that emerged from the Sandinista Front. One of the things is that we are clear that we coincide on some of the elements of struggle. In that sense there are times when the Frente goes into the streets and we don't go in ourselves. And we don't go. Independently of the fact that in Managua 99% of the members are people who are militants in the party, and even organically. They are Congress persons, they belong to the District and Departmental Assemblies. One of the important things is that the leadership has been capable of understanding the discussion at its different respective levels.

So subordination does not exist. We made that leap in 90. What happens, and this is a phenomenon more in Nicaragua. In the electoral processes yes, a crisis develops, because the people incline themselves toward a certain position, a certain leadership, certain interests. But this does not mean that it strikes against the natural process of participation of the people in its moment. And we know that these electoral processes, there are moments where the community is divided, that the militancy is divided.

Q - When you talked about that at times the Frente takes to the streets and you don't, when I was talking to people in the movement 92, they were saying that it was time to be less belligerent, because people were tired of it, because people were tired. Has that changed with the Aleman government, is there more belligerence?

It is important that when Orlando was saying that doctors were asking for the support of the social organizations, practically the full support that there was in the 7 different points in Managua, were doctors and the Communal Movement or neighborhood dwellers. That tells you, speaks clearly the fact that the neighborhood dwellers, that the leadership of the social movements were there. And there was no leader of the Frente out there heading things up, Daniel was not out there.

Q - Orlando, before the settlement or maybe after the property settlement in November, did that help you mobilize, or what effect did that have on you as a Movement?

We after 90 in terms of the property matter, we did experience a lot of development. Because there was an instrument that allowed us to organize people, and that was the fact that property was under dispute. But nevertheless, it is not the only axis that we use to do promotion. For example, one of the strongest elements that we have had historically was health care. We have a large territorial, organized structure. We also have a patrimony, where we do health work, like the medical posts. So this allows us to have communication, connections with MINSA as such, and they also always take us into account because of our experience and strength in this field. They can say, that we are not going to work in the east, but practically speaking in the districts, in the municipalities and in the neighborhoods MINSA looks for us, because we are a real force.

Q - Can you give me an example of the health work that you do?

Well, one of the traditional things is the participation in the vaccination campaigns. We work in the campaigns of battling mosquitoes, we work in the clean up campaigns, we work in reproductive health. We have right now 2,400 brigades workers trained in reproductive health that develop a work of counseling in the community. We also work offering health services through the medical posts. We have a network of 64 medical posts in Managua that are directly maintained by the efforts of the population. The water, light, maintenance of the infrastructure that is done by the community and is led by the health brigade workers of the Communal Movement. So we work in all that.

We also work in direct actions with children, through preschool education. We work with children between the ages of 3 and 6. We serve some 5,000 children in Managua with the preschools, where the community organizes in search of finding alternatives for educating the children. We have around 40 communal preschools that are suffering the attacks right now from the Ministry of Education that is trying to make them disappear and leave them in their hands.

The same thing is happening with MINSA. But the resistance of the leaders and the population allow these instruments to remain.

Q - What me ask you something about what Marcos Membreño said. I didn't quite get what it would mean specifically. He talked about how the Communal Movement how sort of been revitalized or made a very good start on working on the local level, on the municipal level. I didn't quite get it, because why wouldn't they work on the local level. Could you clarify that? Did he mean outside of Managua? [He mentioned taking advantage of the spaces that had opened up for participation on the local level with the decentralization of the State apparatus, giving more responsibility to the local level than ever before]

I imagine he proposed that from the point of view of the participation of leaders from the Communal Movement in some spaces of the district or municipal nature. For example, we participate on the Health Councils at the local level, at the district level. We are members of some hospital boards. That were instruments of leadership that the government used. Some of them have been disappearing intentionally by the government. But we do participate in some spaces. What happens as well is that this government has made an effort to try to weaken some of those decision making spaces. For example, they do not allow us lobby or directly petition the municipal offices of Managua. Rather they try to impede us or block our activity in any way possible. The government also in general is using policies of not permitting funding or support for the Communal Movement, trying to strangle us economically.

Q - Where do you get your funds?

For example, there are organizations on the international level that support us, like Swedish organizations, Belgian organizations.

Q - Are you an NGO, so that you would have the problems that Luz Marina talked about?

Yes, we are an NGO. Yes, for example they are not allowing any tax free introduction [of goods or money] as the law establishes. Here they do not allow it. This is a way of strangling us economically.

Mario : But they do not respond to all NGOs the same. Because the Church is like an NGO, they have their NGO, and they allow them any type of introduction [of goods or money]. In the end, the Church is more in charge than the State. So they don't solve the problem of the doctors because the Cardinal is not here. At times it appears that the Cardinal is the Minister of Health.

Q - Now we heard that because of the new tax law there were all these obstacles to the NGOs, like taxation [charging taxes for anything that costs more than 500 cordobas], requiring matching funds [have to be self-sustaining by having matching funds for any funds coming in from outside the country]. And since it is virtually impossible for any matching fund thing to work in this country because there are not enough resources, I asked Luz Marina if this means the death of the NGOs and she said, "no, we are going to fight back and win. Because the government is going to listen to us." I wondered what you thought about that.

It is more or less similar [our situation to the one you described]. For example, if there is aid coming in to the organization, the law demands that it should be exempt from taxes. But they charge taxes on it, they do not allow the exemption. So that takes you to the point where you are not getting anything out of it.

Q - Just tax on donated goods or also money?

On everything that comes in, on money as well. So we have been discussing this and we believe that the different NGOs established in the country should fight for that right, because it is a right that the law contemplates, but that they are violating.

Q - But doesn't the new tax law allow the government to tax? That is what Luz Marina said.

No, the law does not establish that. Rather the law says that the government has to exempt us, but they don't do it.

Q - Are you optimistic about the possibility of fighting this successfully?

I think one of our principles is optimism. Because if we take on a struggle, it is because we are clear that we have to get something out of it. If not, we wouldn't take it on.

Q - Are people going to take to the streets for something like the NGOs?

We believe that if people are well prepared, they will go out. Because it is a form of having alternatives for their survival, through the NGOs.

Mario: You were asking about motivation earlier. I believe that there have been moments when the people of Nicaragua have been unmotivated, demobilized. But we believe that people are going to wake up, for all the sectors there is going to be a moment.. , if all the sectors met with the government, the government owes something to every sector, the government has things pending with every sector. So I believe there is going to be an awakening, maybe not a violent one, like has happened, but people are moving at their own rhythm. For example, the participation of the doctors was not what it is like now. The doctors who are participating now had never participated in anything before. But they see that their interests now are seriously eroded. So they decided to fight, because now it is unimaginable that they would take to the streets. And the government never thought they would. Because there are doctors there from every ideology.

Q - So there has been no resolution to the doctors' strike?

No, there has been no resolution. They had offered 115% [of their salaries] , but we are convinced that was not the best. The doctors were asking for 500% [increase]. They were demanding 1,000%, but 500% immediately, and 500% in the 1999 budget. But we feel that their proposal of 500% they are going to be flexible with that. We imagine they are going to look for a solution. But the government hasn't made an effort to comply with its responsibility. The doctors have now been fighting for 11 weeks, and now they are heading toward 12. Today there is a meeting, we have a meeting to deal with the problem.